Curse

Corwin_Andros · Jun 03, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

It seems they are aiming to make collection of the rare things in this game actually RARE.. imagine that.

Had they done all this in the first place so that in all teh game only a handful of players acutally had superior runes and things, they would roughtly be a non-issue.

Unfortunatley they made it possible to get them by farming them like friggin crops and now that they are actually balancing things out, it has thrown in an imbalance for new players.

SO yeah we do have a case of haves and have-nots and other than make everything ridiculously and stupidly easy so that EVERYONE can catch up.. it is gonna stay that way until the haves get bored and go play another game.

Lazarous · Jun 03, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Yeah, skill points need to be such a rare and prized resource that they're only used on the most valuable of possible abilities.

Oh wait, no.

They nerfed an XP spot to oblivion. I could give two ****s about the loot i was getting from golems, they nerfed to oblivion what used to be a decent spot for xp that didn't feel too much like grind because i could hop in, spend 10 minutes doing a run and quit.

And yup, its gonna stay like this till people who have already farmed the game to play it how it was balanced to play go away. Thats a beautiful thing, isn't it? They'll quit because they can't get decent competition.

GG a.net.

Levian Lain · Jun 03, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolfWinter

Ahh first post, i'll try not to embarass myself.

I'm getting annoyed by the way the anet is going about these updates. I really can't stand seeing them nerf farming spot after farming spot for reasons that seem to contradict what the intention of this game is. I'm tired of seeing the 'this game isn't about who can play the longest, its about who has the most skill' (well, it shouldnt be skill, its more who can work as a team the best, isnt it?) rant, and then hearing about how they're making it just that much harder to get those top notch weapons, runes, and gold. Do anet not understand why this is a contradiction? If they want it to be a matter of skill they need to have people on an equal level going into multiplayer, rather than what they're doing, which is giving the people who've been playing longer an advantage (as they were around before the various places got nerfed).

I would rather see them make everything available earlier, and in greater amounts than have them nerf all the best farming spots, and throw in a bunch of utterly useless changes (making the runes uglier isn't helping this game out in any way). If this keeps up im going to have to go back to playing CS:S.

Arenanet wants you to gain these items through casual play, instead of you actively farming them. The fact that they increased regular drops, and made farming spots tougher was so that you can still get these items through regular playing, instead of doing that same mission each time.

I'd say they've been doing a pretty good job rebalancing things out.

Lazarous · Jun 03, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Arenanet wants you to gain these items through casual play, instead of you actively farming them. The fact that they increased regular drops, and made farming spots tougher was so that you can still get these items through regular playing, instead of doing that same mission each time.

I'd say they've been doing a pretty good job rebalancing things out.

Then i'd say the failed completely. You can start in pre searing, do every possible sidequest, every mission, every bonus - you will still have virtually no superior runes, you'll be short several skillpoints from being able to buy all your skills and elites, and you'll only have a mediocre selection of weapon mods.

If you go back and start hunting for stuff, guess what? You're farming. A.net seems to be doing everything in its power to make that farming as painful as possible, and take as much time as possible.

The Pope · Jun 03, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Why can't they just make a quick but extremely difficult way of getting runes/elites etc. with a 100% chance? Survive endless waves of level 30 monsters for 10 minutes to get a superior rune each?

It's actually closer to "earning" items than the mindless grind that exists now.

Kishin · Jun 03, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Then i'd say the failed completely. You can start in pre searing, do every possible sidequest, every mission, every bonus - you will still have virtually no superior runes, you'll be short several skillpoints from being able to buy all your skills and elites, and you'll only have a mediocre selection of weapon mods.

If you go back and start hunting for stuff, guess what? You're farming. A.net seems to be doing everything in its power to make that farming as painful as possible, and take as much time as possible.

Lazarous' last statement sums it up nicely. After you do all the missions and all the quests, there is no more casual play. Anything else you're going to be doing in PvE is either trying to acquire/unlock more runes/mods/gold or SoCing elites, and that right there is farming. Those are the primary tangible goals that lie ahead once the storyline/mission content is done.

-Eirion

CtrlAltDel · Jun 03, 2005, 02:00 AM // 02:00

i love saus's long post
hit the nail on the head

Devil's Dictionary · Jun 03, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Sausaletus Rex's post left me speechless. If I say anything more, I'd be considered as a brownoser so I'll stop here with the compliments.

Some of the issues he rised I was aware of. For example only today I was talking to my guild-mate about the problem that skills of the same type like Mesmer's Mantras, Elementalist's Conjures and Attunements are so far apart in the game. You need to get to Droknar's to get some sort of coherency in your build: until very recently (my Ranger is in the Hedge of Denravi) I had a real mismash of a skill belt. I didn't have enough skills to be a disruption, anti-caster or a damage-dealing Ranger because I had 2-3 skills from each cathegory. When I was playing with my Mesmer, on the other hand, I had a neat sequence of disrupting skills which I haven't changed from Gates of Kryta to Amnoon Oasis. The problem I experienced with my Ranger is a deja vu: I had the same thing with my W/Ne (which I deleted after Dunes of Despair).

As the new additions go, I can't believe ArenaNet made new art for the runes (which I believe am the sore admirer of) but didn't even bother with a new trade alternative or at least a storage box for the Guild Halls. I am forced to disable Trade and General chat because of the abhorrent spam. I guess I'll make some use of the suggestion forum but will I be heard?

Zeru · Jun 03, 2005, 05:43 AM // 05:43

I don't understand this. Deliver by far the best pvp system out there in the betas with a decent pve to boot, and then slowly wreck it further and further to the point where it's just another average grind+bore/fest and absurdly difficult for a new player to catch up to an alpha player in terms of equipment/skills/runes.

I put 150 hours in very early on but I have no patience for repetitive tasks and stopped when I realized it would take 4x or more of that to be ready for pvp, as pve is really lacking depth and structure/choice. When I saw the hype for the new update supposably addressing pvp issues I quit playing till it came out, hoping I wouldn't have to waste anymore time.

What a huge disappointment. The devs obviously know our feelings. They obviously know things are in bad shape and we get cosmetic changes and weak band-aid fixes. This is almost like a mockery.

There are tons of things they could do to help short of a UA. Short and specific quests for runes. You want a superior expertise? Take the quest for it. Whether it be solo or group, you still get a 100% chance of getting that sorely needed rune. Do it with a good setup in 10-20 mins, do the next one. Voila, little repetition, quick rewards.

For elites, same ideas. Add quests for a specific elite. Group or solo or a mix, doesn't matter. Make it reasonably difficult, but not something an average pug with some coordination can't handle. If for some reason the devs are insistent on keeping this random, god awful soc system in the game, then simply put a boss at the end of the quest and make it only use that elite repeatedly.

As for skill points, rather than increasing xp needed, decrease it. Start it at 1k and have it drop a decent amount at every new skill point gained, with a cap at 100 xp.

Of course, you should have the choice in to search for these elites/runes in EAs or missions, at a much increased frequency and ease. Viable choice is always good.

If farming spots are nerfed fine; REALLY increase good drops then. Not this paltry rubbish we've been getting. Unlockables should not be rare. Pve only stuff, sure. A little rarity for that is good. Something needed in pvp should not be rare, period.

If the devs don't want to do all that work, here's a simple solution then. When you beat hells precipice you unlock every rune, skill, and elite for pvp, along with all weapon mods. Screws pve characters? Add more for them.

Put in many more gold sinks, Pve only stuff if you will. Real good equipment that you can't use in pvp. Cosmetic stuff for guild halls, like being able to add a mansion type meeting ground, able to add on various areas like sparring room or kitchen, etc. Tons of possibilities. Just *some hope*. There's not much time left before many of the best players start leaving, if they haven't already. And trust me, the alphas/betas are not the ones you want to be leaving en masse. Really shortens game length.

Rather than have the concept of level 1-20 is the learning stage, then is pvp ready time, have missions/eas up to hells precipice being the learning stage. Full pvp is right around the corner and not with 900 more hours of grind.

Maiyn · Jun 03, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

So, has anyone seen the new Geomancer armor? Does anyone have screenshots of what it's supposed to look like now, and what it looked like previously?

I don't get this. Are they talking about the 1.5p armor or the 15p armor.. because well.. mine looks exactly the same as it did before ^^; (I have the 15p... and it always looked different than the 1.5)

That's completely garbage if you have to rebuy the armor. I feel bad for people who bought the armor that was expensive with no difference if it's not going to change after a patch. ouch..

Citizen_Nokarot · Jun 03, 2005, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Definately a step in the right direction.. Even though this game is already the greatest.

Syno · Jun 03, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

I don't understand this. Deliver by far the best pvp system out there in the betas with a decent pve to boot, and then slowly wreck it further and further to the point where it's just another average grind+bore/fest and absurdly difficult for a new player to catch up to an alpha player in terms of equipment/skills/runes.

I put 150 hours in very early on but I have no patience for repetitive tasks and stopped when I realized it would take 4x or more of that to be ready for pvp, as pve is really lacking depth and structure/choice. When I saw the hype for the new update supposably addressing pvp issues I quit playing till it came out, hoping I wouldn't have to waste anymore time.

What a huge disappointment. The devs obviously know our feelings. They obviously know things are in bad shape and we get cosmetic changes and weak band-aid fixes. This is almost like a mockery.

There are tons of things they could do to help short of a UA. Short and specific quests for runes. You want a superior expertise? Take the quest for it. Whether it be solo or group, you still get a 100% chance of getting that sorely needed rune. Do it with a good setup in 10-20 mins, do the next one. Voila, little repetition, quick rewards.

For elites, same ideas. Add quests for a specific elite. Group or solo or a mix, doesn't matter. Make it reasonably difficult, but not something an average pug with some coordination can't handle. If for some reason the devs are insistent on keeping this random, god awful soc system in the game, then simply put a boss at the end of the quest and make it only use that elite repeatedly.

As for skill points, rather than increasing xp needed, decrease it. Start it at 1k and have it drop a decent amount at every new skill point gained, with a cap at 100 xp.

Of course, you should have the choice in to search for these elites/runes in EAs or missions, at a much increased frequency and ease. Viable choice is always good.

If farming spots are nerfed fine; REALLY increase good drops then. Not this paltry rubbish we've been getting. Unlockables should not be rare. Pve only stuff, sure. A little rarity for that is good. Something needed in pvp should not be rare, period.

If the devs don't want to do all that work, here's a simple solution then. When you beat hells precipice you unlock every rune, skill, and elite for pvp, along with all weapon mods. Screws pve characters? Add more for them.

Put in many more gold sinks, Pve only stuff if you will. Real good equipment that you can't use in pvp. Cosmetic stuff for guild halls, like being able to add a mansion type meeting ground, able to add on various areas like sparring room or kitchen, etc. Tons of possibilities. Just *some hope*. There's not much time left before many of the best players start leaving, if they haven't already. And trust me, the alphas/betas are not the ones you want to be leaving en masse. Really shortens game length.

Rather than have the concept of level 1-20 is the learning stage, then is pvp ready time, have missions/eas up to hells precipice being the learning stage. Full pvp is right around the corner and not with 900 more hours of grind.

You do make some valid points, but try to realize the amount of time needed to implement the changes we are requesting. Yes, the devs know this, but sorting through, rewriting, recoding...takes time. Give them a little. A game that started this good is rare. They obviously know what they are doing!

Sausaletus Rex · Jun 03, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

You can start in pre searing, do every possible sidequest, every mission, every bonus - you will still have virtually no superior runes, you'll be short several skillpoints from being able to buy all your skills and elites, and you'll only have a mediocre selection of weapon mods.

Not just a mediocre selection of mods and runes. A *random* mediocre selection of mods and runes. What you unlock is entirely out of your hands and relies on on chance and the level of the item you're identifying so by the time you "beat" the game you'll be assured of a certain percentage of things unlocked but in no way will you be able to guess just what those unlocks will be.

For example, by the time I was finishing up the missions with my first character I had enough runes and staff upgrades to make a decent Necromancer. The only problem? I was playing a Warrior. Which meant it was alot of farming just to get even the minors I'd want.

The biggest problem with the unlocking mechanic, of course, is that random factor. You just don't know what you're going to get. You have no control over it. You just happen to stumble across things so that rather than deciding for yourself what items you find most useful you have them handed to you so that you can make the best of them. You either get lucky and get handed good things rights away or you invest more time to increase your odds of of finding what you're looking for. It's a system that encourages farming, basically, and that rewards those who have more time to commit to playing rather than those who have better knowledge or greater intelligence. So by its very nature it's encouraging the ever-widening gulf between haves and have nots.

Of course, there's always going to be that gulf. In its current state Guild Wars rewards those who put in more time - who have more hours a day or a week to devote to playing the game - because they'll unlock more, they'll earn more skill points, they'll reach the areas where the good stuff is hidden faster. It unavoidable and it's a very hard bell to unring. You can't take items away from peope once they're in their inventory, they'll notice and they're not going to be happy when all their loot disappears overnight. But this game is supposed to be the one that favors brains over brawn. That gives a player an advantage not because they can play eight hours a day but because they're able to recognize their best options from the many choices they have. That favors strategy over acquisition. That's about setting a level playing field between you and whatever it is you're facing and letting your abilities not the abilities of your character be the decisive factor. Yes, a bit of treadmill is all well and good because people like to level, people like to be led on by a string of small rewards, and people like to feel they've earned things. But I don't feel that's contrary to the idea that it's all about options not raw power. It just means there's a learning curve, a ramp which you need to travel before you get to the point where your options explode. The question, as it's been since release, is not how to remove that curve but just how long is should be so that the haves still have a reason to play at the end of it but that it's not going to take the have-nots months and months to catch up.

Wonderful, a powergamer versus casual gamer argument. Exactly what I never hoped to see in Guild Wars...

Anyhow, my solution to the unlocking grind remains the same. I'd replace the item rewards for most quests with unlock rewards. Complete Althea's Ashes and you don't get your 5th Protective Icon, you get a Minor Fire Rune. Or a Fiery Bow String. And just like earning a skill reward you get that item unlocked from then on. It will take some effort and balancing - what item is right for each quest, does everyone get a Fire rune or do only primary eles get that while everyone else gets a different rune, do you give out upgrade items or upgraded weapons - but it can be done. And it would remove that random element or at least give another way of getting around it so that if you were to need, say, a Minor Fire rune, you'd either be able to stuble across it or know exactly where to look. And personally, I'd find sch rewards a lot more meaningful and valuable than the items that are passed out now most of which are destined only for the merchant for a paltry amount of gold because I've got better or I can't use them in the first place. Throw in some new collectors who'll pass out runes and upgrades and you've got a viable system that those who can percieve the benefits of a particular rune for their particular character can take advantage of while still retaining the idea of progression and exploration to find more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolfWinter

I would rather see them make everything available earlier, and in greater amounts than have them nerf all the best farming spots, and throw in a bunch of utterly useless changes (making the runes uglier isn't helping this game out in any way). If this keeps up im going to have to go back to playing CS:S.

I don't think that post was an embarrassment at all.

Anyhow, I agree. In the beginning of the game you should be able to glimpse the full complexity of thigns just never be able to reach out and grab it until you've advanced and gotten the resources - the gold, the skill points, the inventory space, and everything else - but by being smart, by understanding and grasping the way things work it should be possible to turn your meager starting point into something as good as anyone else's. Then, by the end as everyone's gathered the resources to get everything it becomes a matter of who's putting themselves together best from their options. Everyone's walking around with the same stuff it's just a matter of how and where they use it because everyone will have too much to ever be able to use it all at once. Again, it's not a matter of what you have but how you can understand it and make good use of it. Simply gathering things doesn't give you an advantage it just gives you the possibility to be able to change things when they're not working - progressing allows you better flexibility, a better ability to make and recover from mistakes.

Instead, the game seems to have been made upside down from that. In the beginning, you'll have far more resources than you'll have options. Everyone will be walking around with the same stuff. There are only so many skills in Pre-Searing and Old Ascalon and even through the Jungle that there's not a lot of diversity in what you can do. You can make a Fire Elementalist but to start with you've got only Flare and Firestorm to work with. And you can add Lava Font and Fireball and Conjure Flame to that in short order but so has every other Fire Ele in the game. It's not until past the desert, when you've found all the trainers and begun to capture elites that you can really start to distinguish one Fire ele from another. It's in the beginning that you'll have more resources than you can take advantage of. Your character will have skill points unused because there just aren't enough skills to buy yet. And it's at the end where it's your resources that are going to limit you because by then you'll have more skills to find than you will skill points.

Rather, it should be the other way around. It should be the lack of skill points early on and the lack of skills to find later on. You should be inundated with choices from the start, taught how to spend skill points, how to examine skills, how to group them together to make an effective character, and then left to decide for yourself which of the twenty or thirty skills available to you are going to be the ones you get with your five or ten skill points. If you screw up, oh well, there's more skill points down the line and you can just leave that skill off your bar until you find a way of using it. But if you're smart then you can put together something that really works. So, skill trainers need to have vastly expanded merchandise, so to speak. There should be quests for every skill in the game - not easy or easily reachable quests but just so they're out there - and those quest shouldn't simply bestow upon your character a skill. Instead, when finished a skill reward quest will give you, say, two skill points and a selection of several skills that you and you alone get to pick from.

And above all, elite skills need some other way of being available to a character. Stop the pretension that they're something special and valuable because they're "elite" and that they need to be kept out of the hands of those who'd have no idea how to use them. That you need to advance far enough until you can start learning them. Elite skills are valuable but not because they're rare because they're so stupidly and grossly overpowered compared to other skills (Which is the biggest flaw of the elite system. It's limiting and degenerative. For a given character there are only so many elites you can use because there's only a few to start with. One of them is going to be the best for you and there'll be no reason to run anything else limiting your character to the best way of using that elite skill rather than the best way of trying to figure out how to use eight skills together). They give those characters using them a marked advantage over those not using them. Rather than making them rare because of that power they should be distributed and diversified so that the power is in everyone's hands. Mutually Assured Domination, in so many words. As long as they're an advantage let everyone who wans them have them so that those who put more time and effort in aren't the only ones to have tht advantage. Give elites as rewards for completing missions. Sell them at trainers. Put in epic quests in every area to find them. Whatever, as long as they're going to remain as important as they are they're not a reward for accomplishment make them the birthright of every character. But give them out and let people play around with them. Let them figure it out and experiment and decide for themselves. Let them get used to how the game works by giving them the options from the start. Teach them about how to use those options and how to play the game - that's what tutorials are for, after all - but let them play and find their own characters and their own fun.

Mercury Angel · Jun 03, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Was about to complain in the topic about the nerf bat to farming places, but it really didn't happen:

Fur Squares now salvage more easily from some items, but you get less. Used to get 4 per lucky salvage more rarely, now I get 2 per salvage more consistently.

I've also noticed materials from the material trader have been dropping in value. Soon, I'll have to find something other than fur squares to farm

Eclair · Jun 03, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Dunno, my friend who has played 150+ hours before the patch, and not unlocked a single superior, unlocked 4 superiors right after the patch came out=P

Play the patch for a bit, maybe they did fix some things that we wanted to fix.

Harlas Kije · Jun 03, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

I played for two hours last night--unlocked 4 items. granted they were not runes--nor were they anything ungodly special. But--it was two hours doing an earlier quest so I was 17 running in a level 10-12 area and got some nice drops. This was with a full group of henchmen. It used to be 1 unlock for two ours of play. If this is standard now--then I will have to think that unlockables are definitely easier. I will hold judgement back until MOnday after playing it this weekend though.

Asrial · Jun 08, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

The farthest I've made it is Druid's Overlook, having created my character 41 days ago.

I'm just short of 71 plat. In fact, I had 3 plat when I came over from pre-searing.

I've unlocked my fair share of superior runes, a large share of majors, and a plethora of minors.

I've unlocked a TON of weapon enhancers.

To get all this, I didn't buy low and sell high. In fact, I sell low. I sell minors for 75, majors for 200-1k, superiors for 5-7k just to get rid of them and not stand around all day trying to sell them.

I haven't 'farmed' any areas beyond hunting for specific collector items.

My method to success is probably that this is my first time playing this game and I have an explorative nature. I need to explore every inch of every location and see what every item from every collector has for hidden properties. I also prefer doing this by myself, or with henchmen, so that I'm not hanging around town waiting for a group. These are one time grinds, so they're acceptable grinds.

There's definitely money to be made in the game, and it's not from rare drops.